by Mary McCarthy
Vassar, Class of 1933
Presentation
Megan, Text and Context, February 12
Reading
Tuesday, February 12: Chapters 1-6
Thursday, February 14: Chapters 7-10
Tuesday, February 19: Chapters 11-15
Commenting
1st comment on/by February 11
2nd comment on/by February 21
Sunday, January 27, 2008
The Group
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23 comments:
The first to comment! Never happened to me before. Anywho...
I haven't quite finished the six chapters yet (I comment now because I will certainly forget later), but so far I really like this book. One beef I have with it is this-way oh way too many characters were introduced in the beginning. There was just no way I could keep them all straight. It was driving me crazy. But it all started getting clearer. However, I am looking forward to making one of our lists in class to make sure I have everyone straight. Ha!
These women are different from what you expect women to be like during this time. I suppose it has something to do with class and education.
The part where Dottie loses her virginity is funny/awkward. I read it and thought, "How could she be so ignorant about sex-even if she was a virgin." But I suppose it just had to do with the time. Also, I didn't really like the guy. He certainly wasn't a 'senstive' lover. Dick was a...well, you know.
So far, so good.
-Elizabeth Bowman Phelps
I also had difficulty with the first chapter. I was discouraged and didn't want to continue reading, but I am glad I did. I could not stop reading the next five chapters. I love Dottie's chapter on losing her virginity as well...I can see how she could be so ignorant of sex..I was raised by repressed, religious parents who never mentioned sex.. so I feel for Dottie...I love when she goes to the birth control doctor and the diaphragm shoots across the room...I wouldn't have minded Dick as much if Dottie hadn't insisted on falling for him and expecting him to fall for her...why couldn't the women want it to be just casual? I'll blame that on the time period I guess. I am enjoying Helena...especially when she tells Norine to clean up her house...I can't really judge Norine on her affair with Harald, but seriously, the house sounds nasty...I am anxious to see why and how the group gets together next and what will happen then...I also want to learn more about Libby...Harald seems more like a jack*** than Dick does...at least Dick was straightforward with Dottie. I had to refresh myself on socialism and Marxism as well when
reading this so I could understand what the ladies are referring to...
--Cindy
I feel like this is really a novel of the Depression Era and that kind of tone is hard for me to relate to (obviously since I was born in 86). All the "technocracy," domestic appliances and fascination with birth control with springs, levers and bells and whistles. Also, there are lots of little details, like brand names such as Pyrex, "Esquire," Trojan. I think this was a fascination resulting from the tail end of the Depression.
I'm not incredibly interested in the communities of the upper white class (male or female), so I inevitably find most of what they say incredibly annoying, esp. Dottie.
I do like Kay, however, and I'm relying on her to be the character who breaks the mold of the status quo. I know the novel/play/movie convention is to begin and end with a marriage. So, Kay began with a marriage and since I know a little about Mary McCarthy, I expect that Kay will meet an unconventional end that turns that tradition on it's head.
That's about it. Oh, and Dick's name is certainly fitting.
This novel starts out in confusion – I couldn’t keep track of who was doing what and how they were connected. It’s getting better now that there are individual stories to characterize the characters.
I thought Dottie and Dick very aptly named, though she seems to get less “dotty” as the book progresses, like when she has enough sense to see through a lot of Kay’s trying-too-hard-to-be-modern advice but still has enough tact not to call her on it. It’s interesting to note how the newlyweds try to approach everything from a “scientific” angle, seeking to show the older generation exactly how things should be done. I don’t think this changes much over time – the youngest “adult” generation always feels it has all the answers to the world’s problems, and that (in my opinion) is how it should be. If we didn’t get a lot of new ideas with each generation, we wouldn’t have the opportunity of gleaning the few really good ones for practical use.
Harald’s supreme arrogance is a little hard to take – mostly because you still see the kind of relationship he has with Kay in young couples today: a self-defined “misunderstood genius” talking down to and “instructing” his girlfriend, who, though attractive and seemingly intelligent, swallows it all in exchange for the privilege of being his appendage. I have little sympathy for the inner turmoil he “must be” facing regarding his homo- or bisexuality. I find myself liking Helena (so far) because, although over-privileged, she seems to have used her resources to positive advantage, and, though surrounded by superficiality from birth, it looks like she’s been willing to work for what she has become, and to recognize sham when she sees it.
McCarthy certainly has an impressive vocabulary (or at least a good thesaurus) that I’ve been enjoying- I always like learning new words, and “dipsomaniac” I found to be much more accurately descriptive than our modern, invented, all-inclusive no-meaning term, “alcoholic”.
The story as a whole makes me think of the movie “Mona Lisa Smile”, especially when the young matron (in the film) is so jazzed about her new washer and dryer. I like the book so far, but I think it’s one I’ll have to read a few times before I feel like I really know the characters and how they interrelate.
I am really enjoying this novel so far, but it is really hard to keep all the characters straight. I'm having trouble finding a central plot. The novel seems to jump between characters.
All of the women in "the group" seem to have very different personalities. Kay is kind of wild, but seems horribly submissive to her husband. Most of the men in this novel so far are not very likeable. Dick Brown seemed like trouble from the beginning and Harald turns out to also be no good. At least Dick was more upfront.
I found the detail of birth control during that time to be very interesting, particularly the birth control etiquitte that Harald explains to Dottie, talking about how you can find out a lot about how people's sexual relationship is based on the type of birth control they use and where they keep it.
Pokey's butler gave some interesting insight into social class in the time period. He is the typical English butler, doing everything in his power to meet the wishes of the family he serves and seeming to have a very enlarged ego, imagining himself as superior to his master. He seems to notice that just because his master is more wealthy, it does not mean that he is superior; he just happened to be fortunate enough to come out with plenty of money.
I look forward to becoming more familiar with the rest of the characters.
First of all, I hope this isn’t late, because I have been trying to read as much of it as I could before commenting and I thought we always had to post the night before class. Either way, here are some of my comments about the book so far.
So after getting almost to the end of the sixth chapter, I am really enjoying this book. Like everyone else has said, I found it hard to keep all of the characters straight. But I wrote each of the characters names down in a notebook and everytime I learned something new about them that I thought was interesting or descriptive of their character, I wrote it down. It really helped me learn the girls faster and get more into the stories they started to tell.
I also loved the chapter where Dotty lost her virginity. I loved how it described the scene in her head of her telling her mother every detail of her night with Dick (fitting name by the way). I remember the night after my first laying there for hours imagining me telling my best friend everything.
I really like the girls’ characters as well. I think McCarthy did an excellent job at making them each very different from each other and yet give them so many similarities. For some reason, this book reminds me a little of “The Sisterhood of the Travelling Pants” because of how each of these friends is confiding in each other as they begin to grow up and mature.
I, too, find McCarthy’s vocabulary very interesting. At first I felt like I didn’t really get what she was saying at all, because she always seemed to reference things that I didn’t understand. But some of the terms I have started looking up and they really do help to give you insight into the time period of our country that these girls were living in and how different life was. It is rather interesting to go so drastically from the traditional women’s literature that we have been reading to this novel, where the second chapter details a sex scene between two lovers that barely know each other. I am enjoying it, though, because I feel like I can relate to it more.
I've also decided that I wish my mother was how Dotty described her mother. She mentioned being able to tell her anything and not feel judged, and my mother and I have a relationship that is quite the contrary. I just keep finding aspects in all of the characters introduced that I admire. All in all, this is a very interesting read and I can’t wait to see what happens as these girls grow up and go their separate lives.
I agree with everyone in that the characters are difficult to keep straight, but so far only a few of them have been described in great detail since the first chapter, so I'll have to remind myself of them as I keep reading I'm sure. I find the character of Elinor "Lakey" to be quite interesting. She seemed to be so disapproving of Kay's marriage, but I loved how McCarthy surprised us at the end of the first chapter by "Lakey" bringing out birdseed to throw at the couple, showing that Kay's feelings toward Elinor were not completely misguided. I find the theme of how someone really feels about someone in the group (or otherwise) versus how they act toward them to their face to be a theme here. Appearance versus reality, which is a theme in this time period I think. That which is unsaid is almost as important as that which is said. This really fascinates me. The whole birth control "hierarchy" (is what I choose to call it), was quite enlightening. Again, a way for a man to say what he expected from the relationship without having to say it. When Harald gets fired, the fact that he at first leaves out the sexual advances of the director says alot. I look forward to seeing how this theme plays out with Harald and the affair and other aspects in the novel.
I, like others in the class, have found the characters confusing. In fact, I look forward to the class discussion to see the list of exactly who is in the group. Chapters 5 and 6 were basically devoted to Helena and Norinne and I really liked the development of their characters, and I could identify with Helena. She has seemed somewhat repressed in her relationship with her mother, but I love the way she spoke her mind to Norinne. I hope each other member of the group will have the same kind of focus.
I found Kay and Lakey less likeable: Lakey, because of her coldness, and Kay because of her manipulative tecniques.
Mary McCarthy really has a talent for description, both in the personalities and the settings. However, I think her book has become dated because of too many references to the contemporary politics, music, art, etc. Again, it really made me appreciate the art of Jane Austen whose books will always stand the test of time because of the dialogue which kindly reveals (rather than exposes) the foilibles of human nature found in each generation.
McCarthy's command of language is extraordinary. I sometimes wish someone would publish a "foreign phrases found in literature" reference book.
I saw this movie years ago--I think I was still in high school and still really naive--I missed a lot of the implications, but I still remember how absolutely lovely Candice Bergen was as Lakey.
I agree with many of the comments about the first chapter..confusing! However, things cleared up as I kept reading. Someone commented that the book reminds them of "Mona Lisa's Smile" and I agree that the upper class private university setting did remind also reminded me of "Mona Lisa's Smile". It's interesting to get a look at how upper class American's were effected by the Depression Era. I am interested to see how the characters will evolve over the course of the novel.
-Rachel Layer
I certainly agree with what some people have already mentioned. The first chapter of the novel was certainly full of characters, and just think, I thought it was hard to keep track of the Lorimer sisters in the Levy novel. Anyway, (most) of these women certainly didin't fit the sterotypical image of twentysomethings in the 1930s that I had in mind. They're all so...fiesty. I couldn't help picturing my grandmothers (who were both born in the early 20s, so would have been close to this age during this same time) and wondering how they would have fit into the group. I can't really imagine either of them being (much less liking) Kay and her "modern" life decisions, but I can't really see them being as critical as Pokey or (dare I even imagine) losing their virginity like Dottie. Regardless, this novel is once again not at all what I expected, but I'm certainly glad we've got three class periods to discuss it because there seems to be lots of changes (in everything) compared with the things we've read so far.
...and I just realized that the back of my copy of the novel says somebody is going to die. I'm going to spend the rest of the chapters trying to figure out who I hope it is.
:)
Caitlin, I enjoyed your comment about the fiestiness of the characters. I thought about it, and I came to the conclusion that woman of any generation can have that spirit, but it is more easily developed when a woman is intelligent, educated, and economically stable, as all these characters were.
I really enjoyed the second half of chapter 7, which I think should have been an additional chapter. The only connecting thread between the lives of the Protheros seen through the butler Hatton and that of Dottie Renfro and her mother was the column in the paper about the arrest of Harald.
I loved the relationship between Dottie and her mother. She is the kind of mother (minus the upperclass background) that I have hoped to be. The thoughts of Mrs. Renfrew really struck home because I have a daughter getting married in April, and we are altering the wedding dress which my mother made for me. My mother was the youngest of eleven children, only 1 of 3 to graduate from high school. She encouraged me to become a teacher--to her that was the epitomy of success. My daughter will receive her Pharm. D. this year, and will be an intern at a Houston hospital next year, so sometimes that fiestiness and self-confidence takes a few generations.
I also enjoyed Libby's character and the self-knowledge she had to develop in her training as an editor. I had never thought of that career depending so much on the economics of time. Publishing is no longer just a "man's business", so each generation has its own continuing successes.
Jeana
Polly has become my favorite character. She seems to be different from the typical Vassar girl. She is not snobbish or rich. Her family seems to have a very strong sense of love and community. They seem to truly enjoy life without needing a great deal of money. Polly isn't materialistic and has realistic, easy-to-relate-to problems. She denies some problems in her struggle to find happiness, like the fact that she won't marry LeRoy and her father needing more help than she can provide on her own. I liked that she decided that she didn't need a man so was disappointed when she married Jim.
I agree with mysticalli88 about Polly. If I had to pick a favorite of the group, she’d be it. I like how she envisioned her serious, out-reaching, platonic future, like “an abbess”. I also had a huge semi-private grin over “she did not care for people with drive or those most likely to succeed” (328). Then there’s her surprising compassion for Libby, who thinks she’s doing Polly a favor by associating with her, when Polly knows it is the other way around, but has too much “class” to say so or to cut Libby out of her life. Polly is highly practical, a trait she tempers with genuine thoughtfulness for others – she makes the most of what she has and is determined to be happy, or at least content, despite the world’s view of her “disadvantages”. Most important, she has learned to define decency/morality for herself and to make her own rules of conduct, rather than following what others consider Right. The fact that she considers it “right” that the man she loves reconcile with his wife because they share a child shows that her structure of ethics does not change and mold itself to her own convenience or desires – that’s what makes it sound and valid. I don’t mean to imply that she wouldn’t have married Gus had he decided to divorce, but she’s not lying to herself or arranging her moral standpoint to suit her own feelings. She acts, I believe, in the same way she would advise another to act in the same situation. In other words, she’s no hypocrite.
I was somewhat disappointed in the book as a whole – I kept expecting some really Big Moment to tie everything together neatly. But I suppose it just is what it appears to be – little pieces of each woman’s life at a certain time. It’s good reading, though, and gives you a lot to think about.
I guess a Major Question would be, did Kay commit suicide or not? I don’t really have a strong opinion either way – I thought she hadn’t until I “heard” Harald’s version; now I could really go either way. Maybe if I’d found Kay even a little bit likable, I would have gotten to know her better and had clearer judgment about her death. As it is, I just really don’t know.
In response to Jeana's post, I also really liked the relationship between Dottie and her mother. I can really relate to that because me and my mother are also very close and talk about everything, so she's often criticized as being more of a friend than a mother, but friends can be just as nurturing as a mother. Also, Dottie seems to see her mother as an idol, which is how I saw my mother for most of my life. Near the beginning of the novel when Dottie talked to her Mother in her head I almost thought she was praying to God as Mother Earth. I liked her almost spiritual bond with her mother.
I loved Polly's father when he sent her the letter saying he wanted to live with her. It was so sweet and the timing was perfect.
I also liked the look into Libby's experience trying to get a job in editing. It seemed to be such a struggle, even for a very talented young woman. It made me more wary of attempting to get into that field.
I was very suprised when it was Kay that died. I had thought it would be Libby since she had the history of illness. But it definitely worked well to have the novel start out with Kay's wedding and end with her death, in the same church. Both instances brought the group together, but for the death of their friend they came together with love and support for each other.
I never thought that Lakey would be my favorite character in the novel, but that's what I was left with when I put the novel down. She really messed with Harald's head at the end, and I loved it! I don't think that Kay would have slept with Lakey and probably neither does Harald, but he allows himself to get worked up over the notion and compete in a way with Lakey anyway. I found myself wondering, "Why is he so threatened by her?" I thought maybe he didn't like the idea that Kay could have lost her virginity to someone else. Or maybe that Kay wasn't the person he thought she was. That whole scene puzzled me and thrilled me at the same time. And I don't know about anyone else, but I was completely shocked that Lakey came home with a European woman lover. I did not see that coming at all. I was extremely proud of McCarthy for putting such a forward concept in the novel, and thought the group handled it as well as to be expected, but I was shocked myself as well. She was always the "cultured" one though, the sort of leader of the group. So, she probably did not feel the pressure to conform to what "society" expected of her. Finally, a novel that did not end in marriage! I hate to say that since it ended in death, and ironically the scene where the marriage took place, but I would like to think we took a step forward by having Lakey's relationship toward the end of the novel. I was hoping McCarthy was trying to say progress was on the way!
I have no idea where to start. I'm disappointed that it didn't involve a tragic blender accident, but I knew it had to be Kay who died at the end. I just knew it...
Anyway, one thing that particularly started to notice toward the end of the novel was the idea of (and near preoccupation with) one character viewing a particular situation through the eyes of another. I noticed it first when Libby "realized" how her conversations with Mr. LeRoy must seem from his perspective. It probably actually happens before then, but I guess I probably only noticed it here because Libby makes such a dramatic production of the whole affair...even proposing to right a novel about it. But after this chapter, I saw it popping up over and over again. Libby and Polly place themselves in the position of the other, Priss tries to see things from her husband's perspectives (if only to understand his motives...it's also interesting that he doesn't try to do the same with her), and Norine gives us insight on the thoughts several characters (but especially Harald toward the end). When Kay is in the hospital, all the doctors and nurses tell her that, despite how rational she may seem, they can't release her until they hear her husband's story. Of course, I don't have any running theories about why this seems to be such an important happening near the end of the novel. It's extremely helpful for figuring out why some people do what they do, but why couldn't this explanation come from the characters themselves?
I agree that Lakey ended up being the only character I really liked. The ending with her and Harald is perfection. Lakey plays on the seemingly universal fear that most people hold that all lesbians, or homosexuals in general, must be attracted to EVERY person of the same gender. Whether or not Lakey and Kay shared any intimacy, Lakey lets Harald believe they did and it is so easy because he, and many others, believe if you put a straight woman in a room alone with a lesbian woman than they will end up having sex. It goes back to the idea of all girl's schools becoming hotbeds for lesbian activity. In any case, I wish more time had been devoted to Lakey in the novel--but I guess McCarthy has her reasons for Lakey's abscence for most of the novel.
--Cindy
This book kind of reminds me of that movie The First Wives Club. Diane Keaton, Bette Midler, Goldie Hawn, and Stockard Channing. They are all friends in college but then they graduate and go their separate ways only to be reunited when Stockard Channing's character is left by her husband and flings herself over her balcony to commit suicide. But yeah, that's pretty much the only similarity.
I agree with some of the girls when they say they like Dottie's relationship with her mother. I am pretty close with my mom (granted though, I didn't give her the details of the night I lost my virginity). I am pretty comfortable talking to my mom about things and she usually isn't judgmental. So I suppose I could relate a little to Dottie.
As far as whether or not Kay committed suicide...I'm torn. When we were talking about it in class Tuesday I realized that I think there is a pretty good argument for both sides. Suicide or accident both make sense to me. I'd like to think that she didn't commit suicide though...
Overall, I really liked this book. It certainly was long, but it was really was surprising and enjoyable.
-Elizabeth Bowman Phelps
I agree with Cindy that I wish Lakey had more of a presence in the novel. I feel like she's the only character I would have liked. However, I do appreciate her absense as the "defining absence" for the others in the group. However, I do believe that she and Kay shared an intimacy, not necessarily a sexual relationship... although why is that so hard for all of us to come to terms with? I believe this is why we see Lakey harboring some resentful feelings. It may even be why she left.
I was just getting so sick of novels with women who were asexual so I'm glad this novel explored women's sexuality and beyond that, lesbianism. Finally! Someone went there!
As a purely satirical novel, I thought the ending was kind of funny. I'm sure everyone in class hates me now and thinks I'm completely morbid but whatever... it's funny because it's so absurd. It wouldn't have been funny as an ending to Pride and Prejudice or Herland but since this is a work of satire... I imagined McCarthy herself even enjoying a chuckle there at the end. And the whole did she slip or did she jump question is just like a decadent slice of juicy gossip falling into the laps of these women. What more would they want? I'm not sure that any of them really care about each other. So if you think about it the ending is pretty ridiculously silly. And they are made up characters so it's okay to laugh when they die.
I agree with the previous comment that it seemed the that the women didn't genuinely care about each other in the group, with maybe a few exceptions. My favorite part of the book was Polly's character. I felt that Polly was the most real character out of the group. I couldn't help but feel for her as she struggled with her relationship with Gus and as she dealt with her father's illness. I was happy that Polly ended up marrying Jim.
After learning about McCarthy's personal life and all her divorces, I thought it was pretty funny how Mr. Andrews thought divorce was a "splendid institution..everyone should get a divorce". I also agree that I would have liked to known more about Lakey. Lakey seemed to evolve and change in the end of the novel from the person we met in the beginning. I would have liked to known more about what caused her to grow.
Rachel
Overall, I really enjoyed this novel. It did seem a bit to me, like others have said, that the girls didn't really care about each other. It was almost like getting the inside scoop on the popular group of girls in high school who always talked about each other behind each other's back. They certainly made a very interesting and diverse group to read about, though. In the end I found several aspects of each of the girls that I really liked.
I can't decide whether Polly or Libby was my favorite character. I admire how Polly handled the situation with Gus and how protective she was of her father. I was very happy when Jim proposed to her because she was going to be marrying someone who cared for and respected her and could provide her with some financial relief after she had been worrying about it for so long with her father.
Libby was a favorite of mine, too, because I found her very interesting to read about. I love to write and I was intrigued by how she fictionalized everything and made her life into a story. Sometimes I find myself thinking about events in my life in much the same way that she did. I know she seemed rather impersonal at times and kind of bitchy, especially when her first comment to the group at Kay's funeral was "So was it an accident or suicide?" But that was just her way of dealing with things. I also respected her determination to make a career with her writing, because it certainly isn't the easiest thing to do.
As for the suicide or accident question, I can't decide and I don't think we are supposed to find out. It certainly makes the novel end interestingly and keeps the reader going over events of the novel again and again in an attempt to figure out whether she fell or threw herself out the window. I want to believe that she really did fall, after all her cigarette was still lit and she was mentally stable. But there are several impressive arguments that point to suicide as well, so I don't know. That just adds to the drama and mystery of the novel!
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