by Gloria Naylor
REVISED CALENDAR
Presentation
Lori Ann, Text and Context, March 20
Cindy, Theory, March 25
Reading
Thursday, March 20: "Dawn," "Mattie Michael," "Etta Mae Johnson"
Tuesday, March 25: "Kiswana Brown," Luciela Turner," "Cora Lee," "The Two," "Block Party," "Dusk"
Commenting
1st comment on/by March 19
2nd comment on/by March 27
Sunday, January 27, 2008
The Women of Brewster Place
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18 comments:
I started this book early because I’m doing the presentation for it, and I wanted to comment when I reached the mid-way point that everyone else is reading to.
I really despise Basil, and he did a horrible thing to Mattie, but, at the same time, I can have little sympathy for her, since her style of mothering was bound to bring out the worst in any child. Her mother-love is really almost creepy – it’s like her son’s namesake; a little would have gone a long way, but such a large dose is just nauseating and ruinous to the recipe. Had Basil been a nice guy by nature, he probably would have turned out to be extremely weak and clinging, with all kinds of psychological problems related to the quasi-indecent relationship his mother fostered (sort of a Norman Bates type). As it is, he is apparently by nature not worth much, and Mattie’s methods weakened what little moral fiber he had until he was bound to become the small-souled person he did. Maybe he’ll do something later to redeem himself, but I doubt it. My point is, I believe that Mattie is just as responsible as Basil for the tragedy she experienced because of him, and she doesn’t have the excuse of being terribly young when she became a mother – she was certainly an adult when he was conceived. I’m glad she doesn’t whine about it, though – that makes me like her despite her poor judgment.
I didn’t feel I really got to know Etta Mae very well, but I did sympathize with her and the pathetic hope she put into a connection with the minister. I also liked how she realized how valuable her relationship with Mattie is. Maybe on Brewster Place Mattie can find a way to keep mothering, but without the tiresome martyrdom she put on for her first round. I think there’s definitely an idea of “home” going on in this novel. Etta finds a home in Mattie, even though it’s not the kind she’s been looking for all over the country. Mattie left her birth home to make her own. After the rat-bite incident, when she was looking for a room, she kept thinking that she “could go home” but like it was a thought only, not something she planned to make a reality. Then she found home in Miss Eva (love this character, by the way), who enabled her to “build” a home that was completely hers and that she loved. When that home was sacrificed at the altar of her arrogance, she had to start over at Brewster Place. The fact that “home” is passed from one woman to another makes it a powerful symbol from a “sisterhood” perspective.
I'm really enjoying this novel so far but some of what Mattie went through is absolutely horrifying. I had trouble reading the part about her getting beaten by her father. Gloria Naylor did a good job of making me feel like I was there witnessing it. It was interesting how she went into depth about how kind Mattie's father was to her, doing everything for her, then depicting him as this heartless monster beating Mattie to what probably would have been death if it hadn't been for the mother. It's interesting that it was Mattie's disobedience that led to his violence. Being the man of the house he was used to the women being completely obedient to him and when he realized Mattie was not he felt threatened and reacted with rage. Then it's so depressing how Mattie's son Basil turns out so badly, abandoning her when she had given everything for him. It was heart-wrenching.
On a better note I really like Etta Johnson. She reminds me a lot of Shug from The Color Purple, being a strong independent woman who feels it her right to do as she pleases and appears to be pretty sexually liberated. I love how Mattie stayed up waiting for her to comfort her, knowing that she would come back hurt and broken. That connection was incredibly touching.
I am enjoying this book, but I am distressed, just a little, at the fact that all the men are portrayed as scumbags. Can we not have a novel where the women can be strong and the men can be supportive?
I was fully expecting Basil's development and treatment of his mother. You can not treat a child like Mattie treated Basil and expect them to grow into a respectable adult. Spoiled children become spoiled adults. Children need structure and discipline. Yes, it is hard when they are little and cute and fatherless, trust me, but when they get older you see what kind of monster you have created. Luckily, we have therapy to help us along now. I understand how Mattie felt when raising Basil, but she had to deal with the mess she made. Obviously, she learned her lesson because she applies it to her friendships and such throughout the rest of the novel. I love in "Etta Mae Johnson" when she says, Sometimes being a friend means mastering the art of timing. There is a time for silence. A time to let go and allow people to hurl themselves into their own destiny (70). If only she had learned to let go of Basil when he was young, the destiny he would have hurled himself into would not have been so bleak.
--Cindy
I agree with what everyone has said so far...Basil is like his father, a womanizer. He plays his mother like a fiddle. It is partly Mattie's fault, but I understand that she doesn't want to be like her own parents. It is a sad picture that Naylor paints talking about how her plants have to die because she is moving into a smaller place, like a part of her has to die, her babies in a sense. She should have listened to Miss Eva when she gave her advice about the child.
Etta Mae does remind me of Shug as well. Especially the fact that she stole that guy's car to get home! I thought that was kind of funny that she said he owed it to her. It sounded like something Shug would say.
I look forward to meeting the rest of the motley crew!
It is pleasant to read something a little lighter and less involved than some of our other novels. You can let you mind rest a little since each chapter is a different story, although connected to each other.
What are "four double-housing units"? At first I thought it meant 4 duplexes, but obviously, since the buildings had several floors, I was wrong.
I read the assignment quickly, saw that we had 3 sections to read, so I have already read Kiswana Browne. Oh, my, mother-daughter relationships do transcend race and time. I thoroughly enjoyed Mrs. Browne. My daughter told me tonight as we were shopping for wedding stuff that she hates to complain to me because I always tell her to "deal with it" or "suck it up." I think there may be some truth there!
Langston Hughes poem was wonderful. I was familiar with the play "Raisin in the Sun", but I didn't know the title was taken from his poem. I love Emily Dickinson's poetry because it says so much in so few words, and I think this poem was just as criptic.
I'm not sure what to think about Etta Mae--I'll have to see if we meet her again. I felt a lot of compassion for Mattie, but I didn't really feel sorry for her (except for the beating by her father). I feel sorry for someone when life throws them unavoidable hardships. In so many of Mattie's crises, she was given good advice, and she refused to take it. I agreed with the person who said she never whined about her situation or treated herself as a victim.
Throughout our marriage, we have invested in homes and fixed them up to rent. We often find that people have caused their own problems by spending money unwisely, or more often by having a drug problem. Unfortunately, I also see elderly widows who lose their homes, often those who have taken out a second mortgage to help their children and then end up losing everything. Mattie's situation is not uncommon.
Jeana
I too am enjoying the book and the characters. I can really get lost Naylor's writing style, although sometimes it strikes me as a bit hyperbolic and that's annoying. But I guess she was using hyperbole mainly during the scenes with Mattie and Butch to portray that heightened sense of emotion and physicality.
Other than that I'm just interested to see where else the story goes.
I think it's strange that a number of people have commented that Ettie Mae reminded them of Shug. I understand that they are both independent Black women but it seems like we approach sexually liberated, independent Black women as anomalies of humanity and we automatically lump them together. In reality, we've encountered or referenced a number of Black females who are strong, independent and sexually liberated, whose uniquities reflect the diversity of personality you'd find in any collection of women. I'm talking about people or characters like Alice Walker, Zora Neale Hurston, Ettie Mae, Shug and even Gloria Naylor.
I just think it's weird that they should each remind us of the other.
Elizabeth Bennett, Gertrude and Lakey were all independent, witty white women... yet no one in class made a connection between the three.
phaedra
I am enjoying this novel okay, it isn’t my favorite but it’s a lot easier to read and a lot less involved then some of the novels we have been reading lately, so it kind of felt like a nice little break. The characters in this novel are extremely interesting to get to know, and it seems like they are so drastically different from each other yet they all share some similarities in the hardships they have dealt with in life. Reading this novel has made me realize how good I have it, because I have never had to deal with the horrible experiences these women have gone through.
Like most everyone else I believe that Mattie had some responsibility for the way her son Basil turned out. However, I think she raised him the best way she knew how, and I think some her behavior was done as a way to make sure that she never became the type of parent that her parents had been. Not to get too personal but she reminds me a lot of my aunt, who gives her kids whatever they ever want in life and treats them like royalty and now my cousin is in jail. I agree with what someone said earlier that if you keep spoiling your child while they are growing up, they will mature to expect that kind of behavior out of everyone else, and some turn to violence when they don’t get it.
I liked Etta Mae’s character a lot, and I thought that through her character we got to see even deeper into Mattie’s. I love the friendship that the two women find, because I think they both found it in a time when it was deeply needed. I didn’t like her relationship with the preacher though. I mean most of the men in the novels we have read have been the scum of the earth, and then they just had to throw the preacher in with them too. I mean I know preachers are far from perfect and some use their supposedly “holy position” to take advantage of people, but it just seemed a little over the top for me. Maybe I’m just getting tired of all of the male characters being portrayed as lowly as they are. However, I did think that this showed us more of Etta’s strength and personality by how she handled the situation and even stole his car to leave.
All in all this is a pretty interesting novel and I am looking forward to meeting the other women of Brewster Place.
boo. I keep getting my days to post messed up. Oh well...
I like this book because it is an easy read! ha-It is nice to just sit down and finish what we are supposed to have read in a very short amount of time.
Mattie annoys me. Her complete refusal to discipline her son-or even set one bit of boundaries for him-is awful. It annoys me to see parents who don't seem to realize how they are ruining their children.
I don't think we really learn as much about Etta Mae as we do Mattie. We don't really see what Etta goes through as much as we do with Mattie. Etta's story is still sad though. It is always a sad sight to see a woman who is looking for personal fulfillment from a man. And knowing that the minister is pretty much going to screw her over doesn't really help the situation.
So far, I really like this book.
-Elizabeth Bowman Phelps
I didn't realize until the end that Ciel was the same little girl raised with Basil.
Mattie's dreams are interesting. The imagery is so deep that I really need a class discussion to understand them. Then I can say "aaaah!"
I agree with Lori Ann that the chapter with Ciel is so moving: the rocking image and the flowing of grief and lost dreams of all mothers through history is really gripping. I thought the rape scene was also so well described. In both those scenes I felt my stomach physically tightening.
In some ways I think her language is very poetic. What Langston Hughes did with a few words, she reveals with full and uncomfortable detail.
My favorite chapter is still Kiswana Browne and the relationship with her mother. It is really the only positive chapter in the book. Mrs. Browne's lecture about having Kiswana ground herself in reality and working within the system to promote change are arguments in every generation.
Cora Lee's chapter really disturbed me because I have taught school in three states and I have met many of her children.
Jeana
As Lori Ann mentioned, it is interesting that the chapter for Lorraine and Teresa is titled "The Two" while all others are named after the women. Is this because the other women do not see Lorraine and Teresa as individuals? The other women call them "the two" since the idea of a lesbian couple is foreign to them.
I love in this chapter the conversation between Mattie and Etta on how "you get that way." Mattie realizes that some of the women in her life loved her more than the men in her life and she loved some women more than she did men...now forgetting about the fact that she had scums for men in her life--that's not important, what is important is her reaction---"maybe it's not so different. Maybe that's why some women get so riled up about it, 'cause they know deep down it's not so different after all." Then, she and Etta go on to talk about the funny feeling it gives them to talk about it like that...so...it's like their own inhibitions about their real feelings and their own ingrained ideas of love and sexuality are what makes them feel it is different, they basically feel the same for each other it seems, but their concerns for what is socially right and "morally" correct keep their true selves repressed. Now, before anyone gets riled up, I am not saying that Mattie and Etta are lesbians, I am merely suggesting that if they open up themselves to greater ideas of love and sexuality besides that of what is innately within us, perhaps they could see where the love Teresa and Lorraine have is not that different from anyone else's....just a suggestion. Instead of trying to define love, just experience love. Once you adapt this kind of mentality, anything is possible. I guess, my main point is that true love does not see gender. Kind of like the idea in The Color Purple that love does not need labeling. Celie was never labeled a lesbian for loving Shug.
Anyways, this chapter was my favorite if you can't tell. I also felt for Cora Lee. The parents in this novel could definitely use a good lecture and some parenting classes. Cora Lee is an excellent example of what happens when you don't teach your children about sex and babies. Her parents contributed to her downfall as did Mattie's, Basil's, etc. Being a mother, I do not advocate for blaming everything on the parents, but sometimes....there is noone else to blame.
Also, just a general question. Whoever had my copy before me has written "Eugene is Gay" at the top of the Luciella Louise Turner chapter...I am just wondering if this is personal commentary or if there is something in the text I missed???
As I said in class, Lucielia’s story was my favorite because it was so well written and so feeling. I may as well say now that any piece of literature is, to me, valuable first as literature – political views and “statements” may be of importance, but, for me, are and probably always will be of secondary importance. The first value comes from the book as a book. Is it truly a piece of art? Does it make me feel something, anything? Is it more enjoyable and fulfilling than something I could have written myself? That’s what I found in this particular chapter. Not only was it a moving account of how “everyday” occurrences can have mammoth repercussions, it ends in paragraphs so beautifully constructed they could be sung a cappella. It digs down to the most primitive roots of womanhood and sisterhood and emerges triumphant.
By contrast, “The Two” (to speak politically, rather than literarily) shows how women’s fears and insecurities ultimately caused a crime against every innocent woman (“innocent” meaning not guilty of any wrongdoing against another). Sophie and the other women who joined her in her ostracism of Theresa and Lorraine are as guilty of the rape as the men are. The story underlines the fact that we, as women, probably hurt each other more than men can ever hurt us. It shows the absolute shameful nudity of Woman’s cruelty based on envy of something that she wished she had the courage to demonstrate. Even now, in our terribly “enlightened” time and place, we can’t trust each other because we’re so caught up in competition. It’s the Patriarch’s wet dream – pit the women against each other and oppression becomes as easy as raping a person half your size with no one watching who’ll do anything about it, using the basest strengths available – something like the contemptible authority a person with a loaded gun has over the unarmed. Now we even compete over who is the most feminist – how insane is that? I think what Naylor is saying is there’s no hope for any women’s “movement” so long as there exists the pathetic competition among women to be The Best. We may have exchanged the Best Homemaker award for Best Informed and Active Minion of Feminist Thought, but as long as we’re after the award instead of the reward, it’s all the same. If we don’t support each other, we may as well consider ourselves perpetually raped by men – the rapists win every time women turn on each other.
Wow, I wish I could print that out and give it to each of the teenage girls I work with. Women, easily recognizable with the teenage kind, but all women, hold each other down by their petty competitions...including competiting over men. We can't get out from under men because we keep putting ourselves there, metaphorically and physically. I knew I didn't like Sophie and the other women for their treatment of "The Two" but I didn't think of it those terms, "Alice". Your comments helped me place exactly why I hated their attitudes.
And on another note, I agree that a book must be appealing to me as a book, a form of entertainment foremost. I have to do a reread to find "statements" or such in them. That is probably why I am not extremely well-read in "the classics". If I was making a "canon" of literature, I would include "The Women of Brewster Place" mainly because I could not put it down and to me, that is what makes a book a "good" book. I totally agree with "Alice".
--Cindy
I identified with Kiswana when she was hurriedly cleaning her apartment before her mother came up. When my mom comes over, I'm always hiding things she wouldn't approve of to avoid, not so much a lecture, but that "look". You all know the "look".
Ciela's story was very painful. I think I felt most pained about her abortion. It was a silent choice she had to make and deal with alone. At least when the toddler died she had the support of Mattie.
It all just seemed so tragic.
My mother is a kindergarten teacher, and in response to Jeana, she has dealt with Cora Lee's children as well! I'm pretty sure I had them all in my junior high and high school class last semester, so I just wanted to shake some reality into her! Everytime she said "I just don't know" I wanted to scream!
The scene where the ladies were removing the blood stained bricks (though a dream) was my favorite. I , like Lori Ann like literature to be literature. This scene I thought was dripping with symbolism, which is my favorite thing in the world to find (i.e. The Scarlet Letter is my favorite "classic"). I thought about Macbeth and the line "Out damn spot!" Seeing something that isn't really there just because you are guilt of a crime is a powerful image. Also, as soon as the image of the banner: "Today Brewster--Tomorrow America" clinging to the women comes into the text, Kiswana enters and tries to stop the madness, not seeing any blood. She's always tried to treat everyone equally, right? But Ciel says, "Does it matter?" The wall is still what is oppressing them. Their purpose in tearing it down has changed all of a sudden. Maybe even whose blood it is has changed. I also thought it was interesting that Cora was the one that Naylor chose to say "Please. Please" to Theresa. I have no answer to this. Just thought it was interesting. Mattie doesn't seem that close to Cora, so why would she dream this. I would have thought Luciela would say the words of a victim. I analyze a lot though. This dream scene, though, was definitely my favorite.
I was also very struck by all of the women gathering together to tear down the wall. That was very powerful. So much of this novel was written so poetically. It is a really beautiful story, or stories. I liked the chapter on "the two". It gave a realistic account of the oppression of homosexual women, being looked at differently for their sexuality, made to be outcasts. The scene where Lorraine gets raped was absolutely horrifying. I had all kinds of emotions during that. It was such a nightmare. I will probably never forget this book.
I really enjoyed reading "The Women of Brewster Place", I liked the way that it was told in seven stories. I'm curious about "The Men of Brewster Place" now. I think it would be interesting to compare and contrast the two novels. I wonder if women are protrayed as badly in "The Men of Brewster Place" as men were in "The Women of Brewster Place"? Alice's comments about the chapter "The Two" perfectly described the sentiment of the chapter and I think Naylor's goal of the chapter. The way the other women treat Lorraine and Theresa is horrible, but pretty typical of the way that women tear each other down. I felt so sad after reading "The Two" for Lorraine and Ben, their story really stayed with me.
I think that Gloria Naylor did a great job writing "The Women of Brewster Place", there are many memorable scenes and characters. While so much of the book was tragic, I felt that "The Block Party" was uplifting even if most of it was a dream. While reading the "Dusk", I couldn't help but think of my hometown Baltimore. There are rows and rows of empty abandoned houses right down the street from all of the tourist landmarks and wealth of the city. The next time I'm driving through the city I don't think I'll be able to look at the empty houses without thinking of Brewster Place.
-Rachel
There are certain things I appreciate in this novel because of the way they almost predicted how I was reacting to the plot as a reader. For example, in "The Two", Sophie watches Lorraine comfort the emotionally drained Theresa. "She looked at the two women holding each other and shook her head. 'Um, um, um.'" I don't know about the rest of you, but when I first read this passage, I immediately thought of Cora's chapter and the way Mattie had comforted her in much the same way. Granted, the relationships between the two sets of women are different, but my mind immediately connected these two moments in the novel. In an attempt to figure out why, I began to make similar connections to other chapters. Mattie is "the light and the love and the comfort" that awaited Etta after her evening with the preacher. Kiswana and her mother have a similar moment (pages 86 and 87 in my book) where they are able to communicate their feelings even without words. "There was nothing and then so much that she wanted to say, but her throat kept closing up every time she tried to speak." Even though Kiswana was unable to say the things she felt, still her mother understood.
I say all that to come around to this point. I had finally made the connection between the conversation Mattie and Etta have where Mattie says, "Well, I've loved women, too." and "Maybe that's why some women get so riled up about it, 'cause they know deep down it's not so different after all". That's just it. It's not so different. In each of the situations I mentioned in the (extremely long) last paragraph, women reacted to other women because of love . Ah ha. Lightbulb.
Also, I think these moments of the book also stand out because they deviate from the pattern Cindy mentioned where women hold each other back through constant competition. Instead, in these moments, women are uplifting, supporting, and consoling each other.
This book has probably been my favorite so far. I really enjoyed the characters and I thought the writing was awesome.
My two favorite scenes in the book are when Kiswana's mother spins Kiswana around and pretty much tells her what's up, and when Theresa is throwing the meatloaf at Sophie's window talking about how they make their meatloaf just like everyone else. I thought that was great!
The rape scene was really terrible to read. I actually cringed at some parts because it was just so awful. I suppose that is good writing, though.
I personally didn't like that Ben was killed. I didn't really see the purpose in it-I don't know what his death accomplished. Oh well.
Loved this book!
-Elizabeth Bowman Phelps
Whoa so somehow I got completely off on my days for this class. I was thinking that our class didn’t meet Tuesday and that we would finish talking about the novel Thursday but I realized I was wrong when no one was in class Thursday. Then I forgot to post this second comment and got my next couple of books out of order. Sigh, I’ll get it right eventually.
Anyways, I enjoyed reading this novel. It wasn’t the best we have read in this class but it did have some brilliantly written sections. First of all, I liked that we got to know most of the women of Brewster place so well and see how they all related to one another. It was interesting how the relationships and life experiences between all of these women were used to make the point Alice brought up about how females won’t ever accomplish anything unless we can suppress our competitiveness and come together as a united force. That really was a great point that I wish many more women would come to realize.
Mattie’s dreams were my favorite part of the novel to read. They were so eloquently written and I found myself having to go back over some parts of them to understand them better- which I enjoy. I love reading literature that enables you to go back over it and dig a little deeper to find hidden meanings. I really wish I hadn’t mixed up my days and missed class on Tuesday so I could have heard the discussion you all had about the dreams and everyone’s thoughts about them.
I also learned that maybe it isn’t the best to read powerful, heart-wrenching rape scenes in the middle of the park with people around you. Some of them probably thought I was insane with all of my gasps and cringes as I read through those pages. Her discription was just so powerful and detailed that I could vividly imagine what was happening. I will never forget some of the powerful imagery found in this novel, it really was a great read.
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